Makin' Waves

What I don't understand is why the good guys can't "buy" the votes of some of these small island states. As I understand it the "cost" is usually some kind of aid that they desperately need so it's a win-win for all concerned.

Hello,
Do you think this statement by prowhaling German historian is provocative?

" This opinion against whaling is almost exclusively found in densely populated urban Western societies, where people have have become alienated from nature and where care for pet animals compensates for weakened family ties and social bonds..."

The historian's name is: Klaus Barthelmess , and has also worked with anti whaling NGOs.

It's a bunch of crap! I think it's true that western countries have more pets but that is because we can afford to keep them... I don't think it has anything to do with family ties and i don't think it has anything to do with whales...

Look at Tomakint for example (for those who don't know he was the person who won a competition to go to Iceland and act against whaling - having convinced so many of his friends to take actio in.... NIGERIA!!) ... Of course he isn't representative of the attitude in developing countries.

I think the main reason why people in developing countries don't care much about whales or other animals is because they can't afford to most of the time - they are struggling to survive and caring about the environment and animals is actually a luxury than some people feel they can't afford.

In the longterm however, everyone needs to care - and mis management of natural resources will affect developing countries the worst.

Hi Lisa,
This comment was found on a discussions forum, hey I responded as you, I mentioned Tomakint...

Lisa,
More of this prowhaling propaganda by this German who attends the IWC meetings:

http://www1.pos.to/~luna/whale/gen_con_pro_whaling.html

I'm trying to respond to every comment. For example this guy also writes that the Norwegian penthrite tipped harpoon is the fastest killing device ever invented!!

This discussions forum has otherwise good quality , it's NOT a preaching to the choir one.

Dr. Peter Corkron , former principal marime mammal researcher, conservation biologist from Australia/Norway,Libby Eyre from the warrior also marine biolog, George a field whale scientist, David @Tokyo and me are the main participants.

If you are interested to join us , tell me.

Ann - please provide a link for the discussion forum!

Cheers ;-)

Note it is an Australian forum and sometimes a bit Greenpeace bashing, but Peter, libby and Ihttp://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/
are anti whaling.

Does someone want to explain how secret ballots would make the IWC easier for Japan (or anyone) to control?

Were votes in Saddam-dictacted Iraq held in true secrecy?

Consider what the IWC has said in the past:

http://www.iwcoffice.org/meetings/resolutions/resolution2001.htm#1

"No state may use or encourage the use of economic, political, or any other type of measures to coerce another State in order to obtain from it the subordination of the exercise of its sovereign rights and to secure from it advantages of any kind"

We are not talking about merely alledged "bribes" here. We're talking about coercion of any kind. And we've frequently seen western nations and groups from western nations threatening small developing nations with regard to their votes at the IWC. Of course, we've seen allegations of bribery as well.

How exactly could Japan or any other nation control the IWC if they didn't know how they were actually voting?

Did everyone else miss Belize's unexpected 5 and 5 votes against sustainable use at IWC 58 in St Kitts? If the vote was in secret, how would Japan (or anyone else) have known that it was Belize that had been voting against sustainable use, and not say, the Solomon Islands?

Japan would have no way of knowing, and nor would anyone else. It would render "bribes" ineffective.

Think people. Think...

... it would also render threats against small nations from rich western people ineffective as well.

No wonder anti-whaling NGOs (such as Greenpeace) are opposed?

> Shouldn't over 1 billion people get more of a say than 1 thousand? This doesn't seem very democratic to me at all.

Ummmm, OK, so I think therefore that China should have 6 times as many votes as the USA, and land-locked San Marino, and Monaco should get no votes at all.

Japan should also get 25 times the votes of New Zealand (a little south pacific backwater)

Oh wait, silly me - that's going to work against you, isn't it?

Instead of making up excuses for things to try to twist the world in your favour, first decide on your principles.

Do you really believe in democracy, or don't you?

David - did you look at the pie chart? That is what it would look like if countries could vote based on how many people they have. So... you see it works for us not against us.

The high seas belong to everyone not just those countries with a coast.

You asked:

"Does someone want to explain how secret ballots would make the IWC easier for Japan (or anyone) to control?"

You have raised a good point I think but I'm guessing there would be some way that countries would have to prove to Japan which way around they voted but that they could keep it secret to the rest of the world.

Japanese vote buying has been proven but there is no evidence that NGOs or rich countries are pressuring small countries to vote against commercial whaling. They put pressure on Iceland and Japan but they don't put pressure on small, poor countries and I think it is ridiculous to make such a claim. Feel free to prove me wrong.

L.

'try to twist the world in your favour, first decide on your principles.

Do you really believe in democracy, or don't you?'

RAOTFLMAO!

David's idea of democracy and not twisting the world in his favour, is to censor debate he regardes as a genuine threat to the pro-whaling propaganda on his blog.

David is a huge fan of Eugene Lapointe and his greenwashing organisation IWMC; citing 'sustainable development' as his raison d'etre.

However Eugene Lapointe and IWMC make their money from advising countries and corporations on how to avoid the very legislation designed to make 'development' sustainable.

Eugene Lapointe has made a career out of assisting the ruthless commercial exploitation of wild resources with no concern for long-term sustainability only the market's ability to provide short term profit.

Lapointe was fired from his position as Secretary-General of CITES after being caught secretly lobbying on behalf of commercial interests in the Ivory Trade
against CITES Ivory Trade restrictions, designed to protect Africa's elephant populations from unsustainable poaching.

Lapointe is still very active as a lobbyist at CITES on behalf of commercial groups wishing to exploit wild resources, he is still totally unconcerned about sustainability and the IWMC has recently been courting the pro-gun lobby in the US as a lucrative new source of revenue.

Eugene Lapointe also actively lobbies to retain the secret ballot at CITES. Disingenuous suggestions that the protection afforded to private citizens in government elections is of more value than transparency when the voters are politicians merely illustrates the usual spin of political interests that value anonymous influence to protect their nefarious agendas and profits.

Its on a par with attempting to suggest that hunting wild animals is the same as commercial farming of domesticated livestock, particularly when that wildlife is in international waters.
If the Japanese government's Fisheries Ministry wishes to expoit whale stocks within its national waters, it has that soverign right.
However its continued stealing of animals that do not belong to it in international waters is the result of nothing more than the cultural imperialism of right wing Japanese politicians jingoistic attempts to increase their political influence in Japan.
Since this piracy affects the interests of all global citizens, those Japanese politicians are simply using Machiavellian tactics by feigning outrage when the international community is rather less than impressed by the Japanese Fisheries Ministry's posturing.

If the Japanese Fisheries Ministry and its delegation to the IWC wouldn't derive any benefit from a secret ballot, why are they campaigning so hard for its introduction?...........

It should be noted that the illicit trade in protected wildlife and products made from protected wildlife is now as valuable a revenue stream to organised crime gangs as drugs and arms dealing.

Anyone who wants to see David's 'democracy' in action is welcome to visit my blog where the uncensored debate is available -

http://sharkbaitblog.blogspot.com/2006/06/censorship-is-sadly-what-happens-when.html

> I'm guessing there would be some way that countries would have to prove to Japan which way around they voted but that they could keep it secret to the rest of the world.

Some way that evil depraved Japan has dreamed up, but no one else has thought of yet?
:-)

As I said, it works both ways. Japan has shown that it is happy to have secret ballots - even though that would mean that it has no idea who is voting with it and against it (and if it means Japan could buy votes, it means Greenpeace could as well - they have in the past). Even if nations went public with their votes, there would be no way of verfiying that that's really what happened.

> Japanese vote buying has been proven but

It's never been proven. It's been alledged often enough, but that doesn't mean it's true.

But there's not much point in arguing about such politics - secret ballots is one way to ensure that every nation can vote in exactly the way they think without concern that they may have been influenced one way or the other, whether it be via direct financial means or threat of boycotts.

> there is no evidence that NGOs or rich countries are pressuring small countries to vote against commercial whaling.

There is in fact numerous such examples.
Dominica was threatened by a German NGO in 2003 (off the top of my head).
And here is a purported Greenpeace member threatening Caribbean nations just the other day:
http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/cgi-script/csArticles/articles/000021/002161.htm

This is unacceptable. This is why secret ballots are required at the IWC.

> I think it is ridiculous to make such a claim. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Well, if the info above is not enough, I'm happy enough to dig up more such information for you (it's all at my blog, just waiting for me to reference).
You might like to check at google for such allegations of NGO pressure and tourism boycott threats for yourself.
You'll probably be surprised :-)

Also, regarding your pie chart - certainly if you want to make the assumption that each person in each country agrees with the way in which their country votes at the IWC, and that each of those people has sufficient information to make an informed decision about it, you may have a point, but I don't believe that that is realistic. That's why we have representatives casting votes, one per country. Your system would easily go against you if just India decided to vote in a different manner, which has been suggested - they are basically voting however the USA does to maintain their favour.

Pro-sustainable use proponents believe that this is the real reason that anti-whaling groups and countries are against secret ballots - it would make it impossible to single out those nations that voted in favour of tolerance of sustainable whaling activities.

Here's a couple of search strings regarding boycott threats:

http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&q=boycott+whaling+economic+terrorism&btnG=Search
http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&q=boycott+threat+whaling&btnG=Google+Search
http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&q=boycott+whaling+developing+nations&btnG=Search

Here's a good one - from Sea Shepherd's Captain Paul Watson:

http://www.seashepherd.org/editorials/editorial_060526_1.html

Captain Watson: Twenty years of criticizing Japan buying votes has accomplished nothing. Buying votes has been legitimized by the simple fact that Japan gets away with is. The solution is to buy votes for the whales. Greenpeace seems to want people to believe that the IWC is a democracy. It is not. It does not represent all the nations of the world, only those who pay the money to join and there is a vested interest by whalers to get these votes and so there should be a vested interest by whale defenders to get votes also. Greenpeace supported helping poorer nations help the whales in the 70’s but now when it is far wealthier today it is reluctant to spend the money. For every dollar Greenpeace brings in to help the whales they spent less than 10% on whale campaigns.

-------

That said, Paul Watson is a notorious liar, but pro-whaling sources also concur with Watson on this point.

'It's never been proven. It's been alledged often enough, but that doesn't mean it's true.' -

As usual David is being economical with the truth, which is why it is inadvisable for him to be calling anyone else a notorious liar.
:-)

In the run-up to the 2001 IWC meeting a senior member of the Japanese delegation, Mr. Masayuki Komatsu, confirmed that Japan was vote buying. In an interview with ABC TV, Australia, Mr. Komatsu admitted that Japan had to use the “tools of diplomatic communications and promises of overseas development aid to influence members of the International Whaling Commission".

David quotes a Greenpeace supporter who wishes to use her right to freedom of speech as an example of a 'threat' to the economy of St. Kitts and Nevis and other Caribbean nations and calls it unacceptable?! RAOTFLMAO. So much for David's championing of democracy a few posts back!

Here is an example of a rather more credible and immediate economic threat by the pro-commercial whaling faction -

Joji Morishita, spokesman for the Japanese delegation, said the Japanese were glad it was not a secret ballot. "Japan will remember which countries supported this proposal and which countries said no," he said.
St Kitts, June 2006.

Why call Japan 'evil' and 'depraved' when its not?....oh yes that would be David's persistent disingenuous, 'racism' propaganda.
David only interest in indigenous rights or culture is to shore up his pro-whaling propaganda.
Which is why as a white New Zealander he does not mention Maori rights on his blog unless it is in support of a resumption of commercial whaling, as though that was the only Maori rights issue.
It also explains why when an anti-whaling Caribbean Islander turned up on David's blog, David suggested he go away and start his own blog on the subject! :-)

Hey Patrick, Lisa, Ann its good to have you guys around here, we have a common goal to achieve and that is: "Stamping out Commercial Whaling out of Existence". May be whaling nations don't understand the fact that they can make ten times the money they make from "Commercial Whaling" from Whale-Watching". I am proud of you guys, and to you David...I am giving you a special invitation to visit Amsterdam (Greenpeace Headquarter) or probably any Greenpeace offices within your reach and see how people like you and I have been at the forefront of saving these beautiful creatures especially through Greenpeace's educative literatures and videos, you will definitely be encouraged to follow suit. You can read up my new articles (directed at you) at, http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/archives/001471.html

Hey Patrick, Lisa, Ann its good to have you guys around here, we have a common goal to achieve and that is: "Stamping out Commercial Whaling out of Existence". May be whaling nations don't understand the fact that they can make ten times the money they make from "Commercial Whaling" from Whale-Watching". I am proud of you guys, and to you David...I am giving you a special invitation to visit Amsterdam (Greenpeace Headquarter) or probably any Greenpeace offices within your reach and see how people like you and I have been at the forefront of saving these beautiful creatures especially through Greenpeace's educative literatures and videos, you will definitely be encouraged to follow suit. You can read up my new articles (directed at you) at, http://www.jennifermarohasy.com/blog/archives/001471.html

Hi Tomakint,

Great to hear from you again. I hope you are well.

Hey Tope! Great to see you here. I hope you'll sick around ;-)

L.

For the record, Tomakint and I came to quite some agreement at Jennifer's blog, which he posted the link to.

Well worth reading, I think :-)

Lamna - 'Do not underestimate the power of the dark side of the force Tomakint!'

Darth@Tokyo - 'I am your father, Lamna.'

Lamna - 'Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!'

:o)